Madison Back, CEO & Managing Partner of 4AM

On this episode of The Get Down, Cream & Gary sit down with 4am's (4 Artist Managements) CEO & Managing Partner, Madison Back. We get into several topics concerning the nightlife industry & highlight what Madison & 4am have done to put these initiatives in motion. Some of the topics discussed are: 

• Empowering DJs and Transforming Passion
• Shifting the Narrative in turning DJing into a real profession
• Professionalizing the Nightlife Industry
• Healthcare and Investment Plans
• Daily Operations and Processes
• Women in Nightlife

4AM Website
4AM Insta
Madisons Insta

Transcript

0:01

What's up guys, welcome to the 145th episode of the Get Down brought to you by Digital Music Pool. My name is Kareem. We have a very special guest today. We have the CEO and partner of 4AM, Madison Back. Madison, welcome. Thank you so much, I'm so excited. And you got my name right, which is not always, you know, the case, but appreciate that. They just assume it's more complicated than it is, like Bach, just Bach. Man, I didn't even think to ask you beforehand. I just went for it. Ha ha. Confidence for me, yeah. I like it. This is a conversation we had talked about having for a little while and I'm glad we were able to get you. I think you're going to bring a really unique perspective to the conversation. We have a lot of DJs on here, but I think bringing another business owner, someone that books a lot of DJs and someone that runs a business, which all you DJs listening, you're also running businesses, but what Madison does is a little different. I guess our first question is what initially drew into the nightlife industry? Like why, why nightlife? Yeah, I have no idea. I'm still wondering how I got here. But I think really it kind of started, I mean, I went to NYU for undergrad. And I think when you move to New York City, you got to fall in love with nightlife in some way. And that is such a broad umbrella term for what. is happening here in this city. It can look like so many different things to different people. But I think that was sort of, you know, just getting the taste of it when I was in college, living here and being immersed in sort of the culture was what really drew me in. And I started doing some things along the lines of like event planning, kind of in nightlife, while I was at NYU. throwing parties, stuff like that. And as I was graduating from college, I started doing some like front of house, door, cashier jobs, those kinds of things at some clubs in the city. And that was kind of, I guess, the beginning. I also was super into sort of like the dance music scene. I guess it would be around like 2010 to 2014. So just going to festivals, yes, the nostalgic era. So I guess it was just like a combination of all those things. And I've always been really like sort of tuned into and passionate about pop culture and entertainment and music. So all those things kind of came together in a nice way and nightlife kind of just got its grip on me. nightlife around that time was, I don't wanna say glamorized, but almost kind of glamorized where like, it was constant, New York City especially, and constant when we went down to those smaller rooms where it was like Tuesday you had like three or four different parties in those small rooms. Like, thinking like Sweet 16 and places like that. Like, you had celebrities in there constantly, and I feel like going out was like a thing for everybody. It was like everybody got together You did the pregame thing, you got all dressed up and you worried about if you were gonna get past the door and it was like, okay, well now I got past the door and I've been going to this party but now I wanna work for this party, right? I wanna do the door, I wanna take the money or whatever it might be, right? And I just feel like so many people that have made a career out of Nightlife and are currently in Nightlife still that were a part of that, you look back on it and you remember what kind of dro- drove you into it. It was all that like glam that went along with it. Yeah, totally. And I... Yes. Yeah. I mean, when I was a freshman in college, so 18, doing the like welcome week thing, which I don't even know if they're really like doing that anymore, to the level that it was like at that time. I mean, it was just insane. Like you would go out every single night for like eight to 10 nights straight at these like 18 plus, you know, that was like your foray into it. where they would do a buyout of the venue and it was just kinda like chaos with teenagers running around. But that was like, I remember thinking like, oh my God, there's just like so many different clubs. You're so overwhelmed when you first get to the city, just like kind of trying to wrap your arms around it. And I think it's a little different now. I think it's less about the room and more about who's throwing the party. Um, so in a way I, I kind of like feel for the younger generation because I feel like it's a little bit harder in some ways to like actually navigate. Um, whereas like there were like Facebook events with parties and let, you know, it was just kind of like a different, different era. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a real shift that we're seeing in nightlife, and you kind of brought it up, but I think more experience. People are going for the Drake nights or the John Summit nights and less of the come to this venue because we always throw a good party kind of thing. And like you said, or there's a certain promoter or a certain company that puts on these events, that always puts on really event, really good events. And I think part of that is because I feel like there's a lot less rooms that are throwing parties now also. there's less people going out, less competition for where to go. It's like... Yeah, competition I think is like the key word because when I look back to like, you know, I guess at this point, it's like, you know, 10 years ago, a little bit more, there were just so many spots like and they were all really like pushing each other to compete on a pretty high level, which I, you know, talk about like business, that's like an essential like you want to have competition, it keeps everybody on their toes. But um, yeah, I think it's just like. a little bit more behind the scenes, a little bit more underground now. There's, I think there's also just like a cultural shift with going out in general. That has really like transformed the entire landscape in the last like couple of years post pandemic. So all very interesting things, but New York City nightlife is never gonna go away. So, you know, I've been seeing there's, you know, new rooms opening, new parties starting and. you can kind of feel that hunger picking up back again. I feel like New York City is in a better place for nightlife than it's been in a while. I know the rates have kind of come up a bit in certain, especially some of the high-end venues. We're seeing some better venues and some more high-end venues in Manhattan pop up where for a couple of years, it was sort of a wasteland and where everything was really pushed to Brooklyn and even Queens. So yeah, what are you seeing in New York and what do you think the next thing for New York nightlife is gonna be? Yeah, I mean, I think you're dead on. I think like it was just such a like task to go out in Manhattan in most recent previous years. And if you couldn't get yourself out to Brooklyn, you were sort of just not going out. So I'm very happy that there's like just like more action in general in Manhattan. I don't know, I think that there's a lot of push, I feel. Maybe it's just because of my age and demographic and what I'm around and seeing, but I think there's a big push coming from the millennial generation to reimagine what going out looks like. I've talked for a long time with different stakeholders in the community about doing these before midnight. style parties and I noticed Joyface launched a party like that, obviously that's in Brooklyn, but you know that kind of thing I think is really great. It's like that kind of outside the box thinking that's gonna keep the energy and momentum alive. Obviously still gonna have those like late night parties, that's what New York City is like all about, but you know 4am we kind of have to stick to. believing in that mission, but I think that's something really cool that I've seen sort of take off and evolve. I think we're getting much more back into like the production of it all. Like I think when you're looking at like what parties are doing well or what's really interesting, interesting people, it's sort of like, what are they going to get out of a night out? Like, is it going to be worth it for them to like? leave the couch or whatever it is that they were doing or endure a hangover or whatever. So I've been really excited to see that kind of evolve like at The Stranger. I'm trying to think like, you know, what else has been standing out? I love, you know, I'm excited this weekend we have one of my clients, Mia Moretti has a show at hearsay, which super excited to check the room out. I haven't been yet. Obviously, they've been booking like a really, really strong showing of DJs. And that's in Manhattan, which a few years ago, you'd never think of that. It would definitely be a Brooklyn party. So I think it's good when all of the boroughs are sort of functioning on a 10, kind of going back to that idea of competition. Everyone's just sort of being motivated by each other. So I think that's a positive thing. Yeah. I want to rewind here for a second because for some of our listeners who don't know exactly what you do as a CEO at 4AM, maybe let's give a little insight into what your day to day maybe looks like and then we can kind of get into what impact that you want to bring to the industry as someone in your position. For sure. So at 4AM, I guess like kind of just quick overview, we're an artist management company. We represent primarily DJs, DJ producers, and we also just by nature of that work, find ourselves often consulting for and assisting different venues or different event producers with anything music entertainment related for their... concept, project, venue, party, et cetera. So in those capacities, sometimes we'll work with other talent. We love working with you guys and your team and other partners on production side and things like that, just to sort of work together to achieve the common goal of having an amazing event experience party outcome. And obviously the three of us know how music is like. the make or break of that. So that's sort of the ethos of what we do. And our mission with our DJ clients is really to help them grow and evolve as artists or as DJs or whichever kind of path they're taking through their career in music. And bring them to either bigger audiences. grow a fan base that's like more tapped in and dialed into, you know, who they are and their brand. And we support them in kind of any and all ways of what that might look like based on what their objectives are. It's very kind of like custom hands on. We're super boutique in nature. And I have an amazing team. My partner is Trachi. Obviously legendary DJ with so much knowledge and expertise. We have a really amazing dynamic together because I obviously am not a DJ, though we've talked about it many times. I get that like, you know, comment from everybody pretty much nonstop. But I think it's really great to have kind of this counterbalance where I can come at things from this like. very operational, organizational perspective, business perspective, which he also is very business-minded as well, especially for a creative person. And he can kind of bring the perspective of somebody who is in the artist position. So we kind of have this like well-rounded kind of approach toward our management style, which has been super helpful for me in my growth in doing this. But yeah, so we have DJ clients and pretty much my day to day. It looks like a lot of different things, because as a business owner, as you guys know very well, you're being pulled into a million different directions. Sometimes you've done a 12-hour day, and you're like, what did I get done today? What have I been doing all day? Sometimes you have those days, which I know you can relate. But anything from like, financial accounting type stuff to, you know, we have team members who work behind the scenes with us. So helping them, helping them cultivate their own career paths in this industry is kind of its own thing. I'm on the phone a lot with whether it's like our artists specifically talking about, you know, strategic moves or projects that they're working on, music they're working on, how we're gonna release it, like all that kind of stuff. On the phone and in meetings. on site over zoom with different kinds of clients. So it's sort of just a revolving door of chaos, but it's like, no single day looks the same. And I think that that's something that even as a creature who like loves habit and routine, I've come to really deeply love and appreciate about this job. You know, I think for all of us, it's really, really amazing that we've been able to make careers out of kind of like dreaming something up and like crafting our own version of whatever that looks like. So I really hold that very closely to my heart. It's an honor to be able to do what we do. So that's kind of like high level like what it looks like. Just a little bit of everything, just as we all do. Ha ha ha. I think something that really stood out when we first had some conversations and we jumped on a Zoom and kind of just got to know what we each of us did and stuff like that. You know, there was a we were talking really high level things, empowering DJs and coaching DJs and really helping move this industry forward. I think a lot of times, you know, DJs and musicians and nightlife people, we get negatively stereotyped a lot, right? And I think a lot of what we put out into the world with the podcast and everything else we do. And then also a lot of things that you were doing, especially during the pandemic, you were really outspoken and forward in helping DJs get grants, finding work for DJs, also talking about medical and health benefits and different things like that. So I really appreciate the fact that you're, and 4AM and you and Scott are really trying to push DJ, what DJing is and what DJ businesses can be forward. So, Why is that important for you? Yeah, I think that partly comes from me not personally being a DJ or like creative. I'm like creative adjacent. I think like having one foot in the world of this like absolute mayhem chaos that is like nightlife DJing etc and one foot in the rest of the world has kind of helped me look at what's going on in our industry and kind of just constantly have this voice in my head of like well why not us, like why not, you know, my team, I know how hard all these people work and like why, you know, why should they not have something that's a safety net for them in the future, retirement plan, health insurance benefits, and when the pandemic happened, obviously that was like a glaring spotlight like onto that, not just DJs, but like all freelancers, um, and that was where I started to kind of get into like some advocacy work because I knew, shout out to Raphael Espinel, who he actually was a former city council member in New York City who was a huge part of creating the Office of Nightlife and the Nightmare Position. And he moved on to becoming the president, I believe is his title, of the Freelancers Union, which is like a cross-country organization. I believe it's like the biggest union or the second biggest union to teachers. And I kind of leaned on him a lot and collaborated with him in the early days of the pandemic because I just saw like the panic kind of take over everyone kind of like feeling like they were about to get left behind. Like, you know, people who had salary jobs getting unemployment and like, you know, all these different things that were going on and there was a lot of fear and panic. And I think I just felt very strongly like, you know what, like we've got to figure something out here and fast for everybody and there's got to be a way and there was and there are and I think we're going to continue to sort of figure those things out. Obviously, like, you know, there is a very distinct difference between being somebody who gets a salary position working for a company or corporation, and those come with different kinds of things. There's an entirely different structure for that. We really are trying to work toward a place of figuring out how would you potentially offer like some sort of health benefit, some sort of something to the people that we represent without having to then just kind of completely change how they normally operate, which... Like the freedom of operating the way you operate as a freelancer, as an independent contractor is important when you're in our line of work. Um, but how do we like push for more? I think it's just like the ongoing conversation there. Freelancers union doing amazing stuff. If you're a DJ and you don't know about them, go check them out because even if you're doing everything by yourself, like they have ways to help you get better deals on health insurance plans and like all kinds of other things. So. strongly suggest looking into them as a resource. But yeah, for us, like I think I've started to sort of open up to other ways of what does that look like to like kind of think bigger picture for talent and something that a lot of my DJs hear about from me all the time is just this idea of like legacy planning. Like I really wanna make sure I, you know, I've been doing this for about 10 years now, 11 years. And as such, some of the clients that I have are clients that I had from the very beginning, meaning they are 10 to 11 years older now than they were when we started working together. And it's really important to me to make sure that they are able to transition out of DJing whenever that time comes in... a very meaningful way where they can still feel if they want to connected to DJing and the culture, a way that they can kind of continue to benefit from everything that they built. And you know, I think you said at the beginning of the podcast, they are businesses of their own businesses of one. So, you know, I kind of think about it in the same way as like a regular business or business owner might think about their exit strategy, whether that's because they want to retire or something else. So that's a very broad way of putting it, but I think it really depends on each individual person what that might look like. But that's something that is kind of always top of mind for me because I don't want someone to just sort of, for all of it to sort of like fall to the wayside when they either choose to stop DJing or less in the amount they're DJing or it's chosen for them because of some sort of extenuating circumstance. So I guess to just answer your original question, I think it's just, I've always been sort of like a planner and like a big picture thinker. And I think, you know, it gets lost in the sauce, like these kinds of topics for DJs because depending on where you're at in your career, you're so focused on just like locking in the next gig or, you know, like kind of, it's very, you can get lost like in the day. So, trying to add a little bit. to everybody in thinking of those things. It's definitely something we've talked about on this podcast numerous times to, you know, you do have to think about what happens when, when that day comes when you do play your last nightlife gig and you kind of age, you know, cause we're going to age out, right? It happens. Um, I think cream and I is like the older statesman of our group, obviously, like we've talked about this time and again for the last five years and six years and like the year has come that we've talked about over and over again, like where we put like a timeline on what, you know, I don't want to be doing this, and this when I'm X amount of years old. I don't want to say too much, but you have to start to get the wheels turning in thinking about post-DJ life. I think it's a great point to make where you're open to talking to your clients and your artists about having those conversations and what those next steps could be. There are a million different jobs in... Whether it be nightlife, whether it be music, whatever it might be, there's a million different things you can do and you're right when you're thinking day to day about what's my next gig and where's my next check coming from, it's like thinking five years down the road is a little, it can be overwhelming. Yeah, and I think like the most important thing I would just say to anyone is like, just start thinking about it in not the way of like, oh, I'm getting out of the game or like, you know, completely like you, it doesn't need to be the scary thing. It can look a lot of different ways for a lot of different people, as you pointed out. And for me, in terms of thinking of like this from like a business sense, I think I just have noticed, you know, there's a whole discourse and for the rest of time about, you know, between kind of like the older generation who's obviously more experienced, who's been doing this for a while, that came up during a certain era and kind of like the younger new kids like on the block. And, you know, there's always that debate over like how things are being done now, like the new way. And I think I just feel really strongly there's such an opportunity for like mentorship, which I know we've talked about before too. Like I... don't want these like amazing gems of like skill and experience that the DJs that are, you know, in their mid-30s and up that we all know and love, like I don't want that to get lost like in this sort of transition. And I think there are a lot of incredible young DJs who are willing to learn from that generation that do have a lot of like reverence and respect. from the more experienced DJs, the veteran DJs. So I think like finding a way to help be a part of facilitating bridging that gap is super important. So that's something we will always be down for. We're doing it on like a, you know, in our own kind of like micro way with some of the DJs that we have on our roster, you know, who are like 22, 23, versus some of, you know, the other guys who have been DJing for 10, 15, 20 years. But... I think just kind of like having that sort of community is really important and only good things can come from it. Yeah, I think that's one great thing for DJs about being a part of an agency or a DJ group or just some sort of a collective is, those young DJs can use the older DJs as far as following them, watching them DJ, asking them questions, asking them how to negotiate a deal that an owner might come to them. So I think that mentorship is something that is really important to all three of us, obviously, but something, we talk to all of our DJs individually, but sometimes it's more important for a younger DJ to latch on to one of our older DJs and not me or Gary, you know? Like someone outside of either of us and just have that mentor. And it's something we really push our older DJs to try and embrace, which is find one of those younger guys or girls and give back to them, you know? Like how can you help them? How can you help them get to the next level? You know, use your experience, use your knowledge. I think that's so important. yeah, and by the way, like, there's a benefit to them as well. Like, it works both ways. Like, the younger DJs also have something to offer them. Like, you know, they, first of all, they're younger, and not to stereotype, but like, you know, they haven't been putting this hours into like, you know, the game yet, the way that DJs have been doing it for 10, 20 years. So they have like... the thirst and the hunger and the stamina to like go out maybe seven nights a week and like, you know, like have their finger on the pulse of like, who's on the come up musically, et cetera, new venue and new promoter groups. So like, I think it's a really like kind of symbiotic relationship. So I'm totally with you on that. Like I highly encourage it. It's a great way to like stay on top of your toes and like stay fresh and stay relevant. Obviously you can find ways to do that on your own. as well, but I think it's important kind of who you surround yourself with. And if you've, you know, spot somebody out there that you think is talented, offer them, you know, a hand up. I learned so much from the young guys and girls on our team, like especially about what's popular in music for that 21 to like 25 year old. Like that's a huge deal for me, because it's a different era. I didn't live through that, you know, and I'll hear one of our younger, younger DJs play something that I would never play in a million years and the crowd goes crazy. I'm like, wow, I need to work this into my head somehow. Yeah, it's like, and you can't, I mean, you can, you can do like all the TikTok R&D as possible, but like, you know, our algorithms are still set to us. So yeah, I think it helps a lot. The young guys and girls are funny to me, but they're just, being naive and just hungry, like you said, it gets them a long way. So it's interesting to see for sure. So something else I wanna talk about, I think, obviously we talked about the negative stereotypes a little bit about our business, and what are some of the ways that we can teach some of these younger DJs to... be more professional and act more as a business instead of just this one-off DJ. So I think a lot of times, you know, we came from this background of corporate life and I try to bring some of that into what we do as DJs and that always helped me. But many of the young DJs don't have that. They're coming right out of school or they're coming from retail or another line of work and they're trying to get into this. So what are some important things as far as professionalism and sort of acting as a business for the younger DJs? Yeah, I think this advice also applies to like older DJs as well, but because I don't know that everyone has gotten this memo, but like it has gone such a long way if you can just be, I don't know how else to say this, but if you could just be like normal and nice. I don't know if it's asking too much, but. Um, no, like I, I really think like everything in life and particularly our business comes down to relationships. And the more you can kind of pour into the right relationships, and I guess you will have to figure out in your own way, what is the right relationship based on, you know, being very clear with yourself about what you want in your career, what you want in your life, et cetera. Um, and the more you're. in tune with that, you'll be able to very quickly identify what's the right kind of relationship, what's not in business and otherwise. But I think just doing right by people, being normal, don't be a diva, don't be also so timid that you can't just have a cool chill rapport with someone. I think... that is worth so, so much. People really just like, you have to zoom out and remember that at the end of the day, like whether you're asking for like a booking or something else, like you're, it's all about leverage and you're asking something of someone else that they have to give to you. And it probably also impacts their ability to do their job in one way or another. Make it easy for them. Don't... make it a stressful experience, don't do something like if you do get the gig or whatever it is that you're trying to, you know, collaborate on, like just think about how it's going to affect the other people who have maybe stuck their neck out for you and like really like hold yourself in high regard to that. Um, it sounds like so simple, I think when we talk about it, but then maybe when you're thrown into the environment and like, again, we're talking about A lot of times like these like crazy parties, nightclubs, etc. Stuff happens. So it maybe isn't as easy as I'm making it out to be. But I think just try your best to like keep that at the top of your mind of just be nice, treat every single person in a venue, for example, with kindness and care from like regardless of like who they are, whether they're a patron or someone working, they're the bouncer, they're the barb ass. or the GM, like everybody should be treated like gold. It's a hard industry, like we should all be empathetic. And I think just like don't be a diva. That's my advice. And you really have to like know where you stand in things. I think it's easy to kind of get like a big head sometimes, but... that turns people off like crazy. And I've seen people really screw up a lot of opportunities, block a lot of bags by just not being self-aware and being a little short-sighted in how they treat people. To me, that's probably like the number one thing that I would say to anybody. But it really, it's so important. Like I, and you might not realize is the bags that you're blocking. That's the thing. How do you know? Unless you literally get fired from a project or a venue or something, you might not realize it. But for people like me sitting in the manager seat from our perspective, we can see so many opportunities. And there may be things about what you are currently doing or did in the past that make it an impossibility. you know, you kind of just cut off a whole possible trajectory you could have gone on. So that is my advice. so many different scenarios running through my head right now. Yeah, same. persistent, but not annoying. That's always a good one. Don't be annoying. I just have to say, there will be really persistent and annoying people who get gigs and you'll see them getting bookings. You have to remember that even if that's working for them right now, word is spreading and feelings are contagious about that behavior. And it's a short term, short lived thing. Like, That's not how you wanna get your success. Even if it takes a little more patience and time, just be chill. Obviously, we all wanna follow up, and that's okay to an extent, I think you were alluding to, but just don't be annoying. There is a fine line, and keep it real with people. One of the things that always annoys me personally is, now this is gonna turn into a venting session, but. Um, I think like just keep it real and be direct because time is its own currency and like no one likes to feel like you're kind of like working them. Like you know like you know if you want something just ask about it I think is probably my other piece of advice. Don't try to like butter someone up or like you know fame that you're like interest in something like we're all doing business, like it's okay, just cut to the chase. And that's something that I try to ask, not everybody is like this, but I try to ask that of clients and other kinds of people that I'm working with if I'm pitching a certain DJ to a promoter or a venue operator. I really try to create that space. This is why it's important to have a manager, I think, also, eventually. you want to be able to get honest feedback from folks in a safe and professional appropriate way. And people are scared to do that sometimes. I think a lot of us worry about hurting people's feelings or whatever it may be. I try as much as I can to cut to the middle of, please give me your honest feedback about this artist or where they're at or if you think they're a fit because that'll only help. me and my artist, you know, with that information. And I can then deliver in a way that maybe is a little more conducive to that person and their feelings. But I think that's also super important. Yeah, our job is placing the right talent in the right venue. And if you don't have that feedback, then we're going to maybe keep putting the wrong person in a venue that would hurt our greater relationship. Whereas if that feedback came immediately, you know, maybe you just don't book that person or you book someone else that they like more. And it, it just, it's a, it's better for everyone involved with that feedback. And, you know, Gary and I have tried to do a better job with good or bad feedback that we get over the weekend with a DJ, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, like we have to, maybe it's a maybe it's a quick voice note or a convo or a video that we send them, but, you know, passing that information along and kind of ripping the bandaid, whether it's good or bad is super important for the growth of everybody, you know, and also the, you know, the success of the relationship with the venue. I'm going to piggyback on this real quick. And I don't like a little bit of advice to any DJs that are listening, listening. And it's, it's be coachable too, right? Be, be able to take the harsh criticism because it's going to, you always get that was a dope set. That was the best set I've ever heard. You get that like 90% of the time or 95% of the time, but you have to be willing to know that, Hey, maybe I sucked tonight. You know, it doesn't mean I'm a bad DJ, but maybe I just had an off night or I was thinking about something else and be able to recognize that, hey, not everybody's perfect, right? And you take the criticism and you learn from it. I think that's such an important thing that sometimes gets overlooked with the ego and everything that comes with it. Because confidence, you need confidence to be a great DJ, right? And you need to stand up there and put yourself out there like that. It takes a lot of confidence. So it's okay to be confident, but also be able to take it when it comes. Yeah, I think that's super important advice, because also a lot of people will say they want feedback, but like they're maybe not ready for it. And it is tough. Like I really do feel for DJs in this way. You kind of have to be everything all at once. Like you have to have a face of confidence and like bring it while also maybe feeling really insecure, wanting to be coachable, wanting the feedback. Like you have, you kind of have to like manage all those things at once, which is really, really hard. Um, and I think what you said about, you know, just sometimes you have an off night or whatever, like it's so true. Like we're human beings. We're not robots. Like that is a real thing. And I think if you can just like acknowledge and accept that it'll make you more resilient because the worst thing that could happen is you have a bad night. Then you're like dwelling in it. And then it kind of creates this domino effect. Like. Just take that pressure off of yourself. You are allowed a bad night. It sucks. Like it might have certain short-term ramifications in the long run. It's not gonna matter. But it will matter the more that you sort of like prolong staying in that space. So try to just like accept it and move past it. That's the advice I always give. Use it as motivation for the next time you're in front of that person who gave you the negative feedback. Think about it and do the extra prep, right? Do your extra homework, practice a little more, or whatever you have to do to really prepare for the next time you're in front of that person or in that venue and use it as motivation to crush the next set, you know? And prove that person wrong or show them who you really are as a DJ. I think that's so important. Yeah, and the right person, like booker, whoever it is, like who is smart, is going to see that and say, wow, that is someone that can take feedback. That is somebody that's capable of adapting and evolving. I would much rather work with that person than somebody who maybe like does well consistently, but like, could they really deal with a curve ball? Like, I don't know. if shit hits the fan and I need to have them change gears, like will they be receptive? So the right kind of like decision maker, whoever it is, the venue owner, whatever, they will, if they're good at what they do, they will recognize that and like really value that. Gary's being coachable. It's important to be coachable when you're in the booth too. Like nobody's big enough to not do something that someone in the venue is asking you to do. Like, sorry guys. I have opinions about this also. I agree, but I've seen the damage that like, when somebody takes that like too far, I've seen the damage that it can do to a DJ. Like I think there's a lot to say here, but something that I am also always telling our DJs is like, you are the expert, like be coachable, but like you're also the expert. And you need to be able to kind of navigate that very sensitively with like, you know, if it's the GM or whoever, um, from the venue, because we're like, if you're playing a private event and it's, it could be like a private client, um, because you're not, I, this is such a played out like phrase, but like, you really are not a jukebox, like they are hiring you at least at like our level and beyond, like when they are hiring. one of our DJs, you guys, et cetera, it's to do more than be a Spotify playlist. So like respectfully, taking your feedback into consideration, but also respectfully, let me do my thing. And if it doesn't work, we'll figure it out, I'll pivot. But just like, I think sometimes people take it a little too far. And I think that's just like a, it's usually like, coming from it's slow or like, you know, like there's something going on in the environment that like isn't necessarily completely about what the DJ is doing, but like they're the first line of fire. So you catch the heat. and they don't feel comfortable with them yet. Yeah, so they're just like all over you, but hovering and that is like another thing that's like, you know, where I am kind of alluding to like, you have to be all these things at once, like you have to be able to be like, professional with them and like respectful to them while also kind of figuring out how to like, still have a good outcome on the dance floor. So I don't know, I think it's like a very case by case basis with that. And I don't, I would never want a DJ to like fall into this. um, mode of just like defaulting to do whatever this person who is not the DJ is telling them to do because it's like probably not going to work. Um, so, you know, sometimes it's like good feedback, but not always and you're going to get blamed either way. Yeah. So it's a tough one. certain, once you reach a certain point as a DJ as well, you can kind of say like, well you're hiring me to be me, right? You're hiring Kareem, you're hiring Trotty, you're hiring Gary to go be you, who you've been for 10 plus years or however long, you know? And maybe that's just a venue that we don't want to work at anymore kind of thing, you know, if someone is really hands on like that and not allowing the DJ to be the expert like you said. Yeah, agreed. dealing, do you deal with that a lot? Are you dealing with DJs walking out of gigs being like, I'm never playing there again? And then being like, is this a huge, is this, and then it's like, you have to kind of figure out, is this a red flag for the venue or the person who's, you know, who's in the wrong here, who's in the right? Ha ha ha. The the good news is I guess about figuring that mystery out is that we usually have like multiple data points so whether it's like Multiple DJs that we personally work with or just like, you know, we're all connected with everybody So we can kind of quickly figure out like is this a venue problem or is it a DJ problem? We also know our talent like really well we get enough You know experiences just sort of formulate an opinion But yeah, I mean, it happens a lot, honestly. But you kind of have to just like evaluate, like is this something that I can deal with? Because, you know, like overall, it's more worth it to continue playing this venue or not. And we try, like if it's appropriate, and we feel comfortable and close enough with whomever it is, or someone that's part of that group or whatever. Like if we can... chat with them about it. Sometimes our DJs even like feel close enough with, you know, if it's a promoter or GM or something to sort of say like, hey, like, can we like, dial it back? Like, let's figure this out. Let's talk when I'm not like actively DJing next time about like the music direction. But yeah, it happens a lot. And I think that also like, is a little bit of the environment. Like there's a lot of stuff that can go down like between the hours of 10 and 4. That you know when you're talking at noon the next day maybe it's like a little more productive. So it's a wild ride but you know you kind of just have to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis I'd say. Yeah, it's just that's a huge part of the professionalism, right? You have to be ready for even if it's the manager, the owner that's too drunk and it's not the DJ that's drunk, right? And it's really figuring all of that stuff out and managing, managing it all. And it's, this is the thing. I feel like these are the things that younger DJs aren't thinking about when they're like, I just want to get in the booth. And then all of a sudden you get thrown, you get all of this stuff thrown at you at once and it's like, well, how do I manage all of this? You know, I'm trying to entertain and be on the mic and mix and play the right music and then this guy wants this and This drunk girls all over me over in this side and it's like it's a lot to process So, yeah challenge from where we sit as well, right? Because we're representing these artists and we're mentoring and managing these artists. But at the same time, we're also managing a relationship with a venue that sometimes, you know, brings in a whole lot of revenue for the business over the course of a year. So we have to play that middle role sometimes where sometimes we have to be on the venue side, but hopefully the majority of the time we're on the artist side. So I think that's a challenge that Gary and I deal with a lot. I don't know. Do you kind of? Deal with that too. Yeah, it's very relatable. We have gone through quite a few situations like that. But at the end of the day, I think it's one of those things where it's just another example of why it's so helpful to have a team, a manager, someone. Because it's just like to your best interest to not burn bridges, like in general in our industry. Now... If something's so egregious, like, you know, there have been certain things that have happened over the years, like, where it's so egregious and you're like, wow, like, they either, they were so offensive or so wrong, or like, this is clearly like a character trait, this is just, you know, a feature, not a bug. We do not wanna work with you anymore, like, you know, that can happen, but most of the time, like, you just wanna never burn a bridge fully and- I think the benefit of having that buffer of like a management or whoever is supporting you, that's where it really like carries its value and weight because that person can kind of like keep things calm, tear out both sides and then you know pin in that and maybe you're going to end up working with them again years later when it fits and it makes sense. But you don't have to, you know, maybe if you were dealing with that by yourself, there would never be that bridge of possibility in the future because, you know, too much love lost on a one-to-one basis. So, you know, it is really hard to navigate and we just always hope and try our best to have the trust of our artists. And, you know, I think sometimes that's hard, like in the heat of the moment. and maybe they want us to have their backs even more and even harder. But I think once the emotions kind of settle, a lot of times they understand what the value is for them also long-term. It's like, it's like for them. It's not about anything else really at all. and everybody's different and deals with things differently. And that's part of what we do too, right? Is learning how to manage the different personalities and different people in our group and how to approach them, how to talk to them, how to give them feedback, because everybody's different. And we could do it the way we wanna do it, but I think it's more beneficial if we do it in the way that particular person takes criticism or takes feedback or likes to converse or whatever. Yeah, otherwise they're not going to hear it and then kind of like, what's the point? So I'm with you on that. It might take a little bit more of like our operating power, brain power to do it, but it's worth it. It's part of the job, honestly. All right, I want to transition a little bit. So 4AM is a high-end agency, right? You know, Gary and I, when we were growing up and started DJing, the goal was always to like, we want to get on an agency, whether it was 4AM or Scam or whoever, right? So what are... 4am was always the goal. Well, yeah, New York based, of course, let's go. So what are some of the characteristics that you look for in some of the younger DJs as far as that you're scouting or looking to potentially bring on? And just what's some advice for DJs that maybe want to pursue an agency? For sure. That's a great question. We've sort of like developed our own unspoken, spoken rubric over the years of what we look for. And it also evolves, like as the culture evolves and the nightlife landscape evolves. But I think, you know, just since we were on the subject, like, we look for maturity, honestly, as just like a soft skill, maturity and like professionalism and like having sort of this. um self-awareness like is something that we kind of look for and someone who isn't like I love to kind of meet somebody when they aren't jaded by the industry yet but they're also not like too naive because I don't know like if you guys have experienced this but like it's actually tough sometimes to be somebody's first manager um because they maybe aren't used to like the dynamic and also they might not understand like really what a manager does. And a lot of times you kind of have to like experience working in the industry without one to understand like the value in having one. So there's like a few things like in that regard that I think we kind of look out for. Um, and also just kind of going off vibes, like, does this seem like somebody who's coachable? Does it seem like somebody who's also knows enough of who they are and like have kind of a direction that they want to go in? Because I've also seen a lot of like, I just want like more gigs and like, I don't really know what I'm doing, but like I want, you know, like I don't, you don't get that like, oh, this person like really understands like, what this is all about, like they have a sense of self and like, you know. that's really important because like I can't necessarily create like the North Star for you, like you're an artist, like this is kind of what it's all about. Like it's funny not to like if you're too far off topic, but I was just chatting with somebody about the Rick Rubin book and you know all the touring he's been doing in the past six months for that and the discussion of like who is art for and he says something like, if you're making art for an audience, that's consumerism, that's commercialism, like that's not art. You make art for yourself. And then, you know, people either are with it or not. And like, that's sort of how like a fan base emerges. They see something in it that speaks to them. So I kind of think about that concept in working with talent as well, because they need to have that, like, passion and drive themselves and that vision and then where we come into play is to like help Execute that help optimize that like really like help put the puzzle pieces in place to get them where they're envisioning going It cannot be like I come up with that for you I mean, I guess that does happen in the music industry, but that's like not really what we're interested in doing. Um we're not trying to make like industry plant DJ anytime soon. So those are a couple of things that we really look out for and we're pushing everybody. Like we came out the gate this year like telling every single one of our DJs regardless of how many years they've been doing this or not. Like we want more content from you. We want more music centered content. Like this is something that you should want to do for you like on its own but we're gonna kind of like hold you accountable to that because Again, I think it's just something that happens. Like you can kind of get lost in the shuffle of like your day to day, month to month, but you got to remember like what your job is and like what you're here to do and like why you're doing it. And it's for love of music at the end of the day and like making people dance and like all of these things that we all agree on. So we want to see that somebody is sort of like very actively invested in their career and giving us things to work with. And... to sell and to package and all of that, we cannot do it for someone. It really has to come from them. We can help support, but that's probably like, those are like kind of the couple of top things that we really look for. And just, yeah, not so irresponsible that like we can't trust you to like get to a gig on time or, you know, like you get too shit faced at a gig or something like that. Like... the big red flags, but other than that, it's just those kind of core features. Are you pushing your DJs to be more artists, to be more music producers and produce their own, or are you letting them navigate? Are you seeing something in somebody and being like, okay, I think we can really grow you as an artist. Maybe music production is something you should get into. Because as we've seen over the last 15 years, you've gone from, you can be a very good DJ, and you were able to make it 15 years ago as just a good DJ, and now that's not really the case anymore. So are you guys kind of... guiding people into more of a production artist role or do you kind of let them kind of take the lead on that? Yeah, I think our whole thing is just you have to have something, and it doesn't have to be music production. Like, I think if your career, like you evolve in a way, like maybe you want to have a podcast and like maybe you want, it's kind of coming back full circle to our original conversation about legacy planning, but this isn't even legacy planning. This is just like evolution of a career. you have to have something. And I think a lot of people gravitate towards music production, but it doesn't have to be that. Like not, that's not for everyone. That might not be your passion. And it might not be like what you love about DJing. So we just try to encourage our artists. And often like that's also something that we're looking for in artists that we might be taking on. It's like, they kind of have layers to them of what they wanna do. Um, because if not, it becomes stagnant and transactional. Um, and it's increasingly harder to sort of like sell someone who doesn't have things going on beyond the gigs that are playing, you know, you can't, I think we've kind of like moved out of the, get that next gig by selling other gigs thing, like, you know, you kind of have to have more dimensions to you. Um, but like the good news about that is it's like a whole wide, endless open world, like your thing can be anything. Um, you just have to follow whatever that is. And I think like, there's a missed opportunity for so many DJs, like young and older, um, because to me, like the whole original premise of what a DJ was to me, um, is like. you're a musical taste maker. I wanna hear what DJs have to say about any and all things going on with music. Why are we not hearing from more DJs about that kind of stuff in a bigger format or platform? So yeah, we definitely push everybody to kind of do something. And if it can be music at the center of that, even better. Sometimes it's other things, but it's sort of like entertainment or pop culture adjacent, but yeah, it's got to be something. I feel like we've gotten so laser focused on like, you know, produce music, produce music, produce music, that you don't think about these other things that you can do. Like you said, the podcasts and you know, creating like your Spotify playlist even for you has grown exponentially and that's just, you don't even have to have like your face behind that, right? It's just a playlist of songs, but it shows. Ha ha ha. I figured that. But like, you know, you're right. There are so many things that you can do creatively that you can center back to music and bring back to music to showcase kind of the type of DJ or the type of person that you are as an artist. We talked about how there are less venues, right? There's less gigs total out there in the market. But I think there's more DJs right now. So for us as DJs and artists, it's how can I set myself apart from the pack? And for each person, that could be a different thing, right? It could be a Spotify place, could be a podcast, whatever it is, it's gonna be content related or it's gonna be music related. So if you're not working on one or both of those things, you can't expect that you're gonna outpace the pack, you know, you're just gonna sit in the pack and you're gonna make, you know, you're gonna book your local gigs and if that's what you want to do, that's fine. But if you want to grow as an artist into some of the better spaces and travel gigs and festivals, you have to be doing something extraordinary, right? Something out of the ordinary that is gonna set you apart and show that there's a reason why someone would want to work with you or book you, you know, you have to show value in some way. And I think that's that gets lost and it's so, so important. Yeah, I completely agree. And I would also say like going back to this concept of like you're a business of one and all of that I feel like you know When you think about other kinds of businesses like and someone decides to start a business. Okay, I'm starting I'm opening a coffee shop, right? Well, there's Starbucks and there's Dunkin Donuts and there's a million other coffee shops that do so well Like why do you need to start a coffee shop? I feel that I'm passionate about this and I have something unique that I could bring to the table and I'm gonna carve it out and boom there I have a successful coffee shop. Like I kind of feel the same way about like the crowdedness of the space. Like who cares that there's a lot of DJs? Like or like seemingly less opportunities. Like if you are focused on you and passionate about what you do and like you said like you're kind of pushing your own envelope. Like you're always growing. you're gonna attract clients and customers and opportunities. It doesn't matter that there's, you know, other musicians, other DJs out there. And not to go too far into this kind of like woo-woo conversation, but you know, in an era, we're in this era where like artificial intelligence and like all these things are kind of like popping up. I think it makes even more of a reason of like why it's so important to be unique and be a human being that's creating art and or involved in the artistic space because there is simply something that like a unique human can like think up or do that like just AI will never be able to like exactly replicate. So I don't think there's any reason to be discouraged by like the fact that it's a crowded, quote unquote crowded space. If you're just focused on you and like always being better than you were yesterday, you should be good. Yeah, there's a lot of lanes to success. And no two lanes are the same. And just because someone that started DJing at the same time as you is doing more than you, maybe right now doesn't mean that you can't surpass them in your own time, right? Everyone's on their own timeline, so don't compare yourself to other people. And like you said, just keep doing the work and you'll see the fruits of that labor for sure. Definitely. Gary, I want to transition a little bit. So Gary and I were looking through the 4AM roster yesterday, and one thing that really stood out to us was the number of women on your team. So I think there was like, almost half of your team is female DJs, and we love to see it. It's something that we've been really trying to, we've been trying to bring more females onto our roster. So is that purposeful? Is that something that just kind of happened? What's the reasoning behind that? It was definitely purposeful when I first got started. I think when I started in the business, the rosters that I was managing were, I don't think there were any women. I eventually started working with the dolls, Mia Moretti and Margot, violinist. And I think they were the first female artists that I began working with. Also Brooklyn Dawn, a little more back in the day, 4 a.m., who's also amazing. And I kind of just realized, why is this so, so male dominated? And I kind of went out, definitely, maybe subconsciously, looking for that. I think also, as I kind of continued to gain experience and exposure within the industry, it just kind of organically naturally happened because I think especially in a male dominated industry, women will seek out other women even more than maybe in the industries where it's a little more balanced because you're kind of looking for that camaraderie and safety and there's sort of this trust there, just, oh, it's another woman. I mean, maybe you should be more discerning, but it's another woman. feel a little bit more safe in this context, just on a baseline. So, especially in nightlife. I mean, women go through hell, especially if you're a DJ and you're like on the front lines and dealing with all kinds of crazy stuff. So, I think it kind of like started to organically just evolve as like I kind of moved through my career. And I would say like kind of like a turning point. when I was working with, I worked with Kiana Parks, who's like one of my favorite DJs and people, worked with her for several years during like a really pivotal point in her career. And I think like, I would honestly attribute that to getting a lot of like attention, I would say, from like other women DJs and like other people in the space because she's also like, I don't know, I think she kind of like emanates that sort of energy as well. And I think, you know, after managing her, we sort of just naturally picked up a lot of women DJs, producers, et cetera. And I love working with women. I love working with men as well. I think like, you know, across the board, like diversity is just really important and it makes everybody better. And I think, you know, we have several women who work on our team internally as well. And it's just been like a really positive experience for everyone across the board. It's funny, cause like, I don't think it really felt so much as like a deliberate thing for a lot of people. And in a way that was good because it just sort of like normalized it, especially for the DJs that are on our team. Like I think hopefully people think less of it as like, oh, that's a female DJ. Like it's just a DJ. Just that happens to be a woman. we can move on with our lives. So I think like that's kind of what we're working toward in general. It's very normalized for us. I know the rest of the industry like still has not quite caught up to that. Like I do the, you know, hardest eye roll ever. Every time I see like a lineup go out and it just like, it looks like the same like promo picture, like 12 times in a row. Like the person almost looks the same too. Hey Um, but yeah, I think like, if I think it's just, you know, hopefully it's like having a gradual and increasing impact where, um, we're pushing past certain stereotypes. I mean, like. If you are a conventionally attractive woman who looks a certain kind of way, who's a DJ for the longest time and even to present, there's just like constantly you're like working against this idea that like they're not. talented, like they're just filling this aesthetic space, which is so far from the case. So we're trying to push past like all those kinds of things and kind of going back to our earlier conversation about like mentorship between more experienced older DJs and younger DJs and like kind of that symbiotic relationship. Like I think there's a lot to be said about like men, women, non-binary across the spectrum, like being in a community together and learning from each other and working together because it's just different added perspectives that like you might not get yourself in your own sort of bubble. So that it sort of was just like an organic thing for us frankly but we're super proud of it. I know all the guys that are part of our crew like are very proud of it, very you know proud of and protective of. the women who are on our team and they all like, I think it's like they all kind of like feed off of each other's energy and like push each other in different ways. there's just been such a crazy demand lately that at least that has been coming across our desk that's like, you know, we want a woman DJ. And it's like, all right, well, we have, you know, a handful, but it's like, a lot of times they're booked out right now, especially right now, because everybody loves to have a woman DJ in their space. And I think, unfortunately, right now, in some spaces, it's for aesthetics. But then once you put a talented person into that position, they're asking for them back over and over again, which is nice. So we spoke to one of our female DJs and she's like, I hesitated a little bit about jumping into this DJ culture because of all of those unique challenges that women have. Kind of what advice could you give girls that are like, you know what, I kind of want to take the leap and I want to start DJing and put myself into this. nightlife space, but I'm a little nervous because of all of those challenges that we all know of. Yeah, I would say number one, know that you have so many options in terms of like who you could go to for guidance, support, mentorship, management, any of the following. I think before there was a lot of like susceptibility to getting picked up by... like a creepy older dude like in the industry, who like makes you a lot of promises and like very like stereotypical like music industry shit, but like it happens so often in the DJ community. Just try to not get into a situation like that. I've been peripherally around some pretty gnarly stories, situations like you do not need to go down that road. That would be the first thing I would say. And just like, definitely kind of pick out some people that you can have as alliances. There's so many resources now. I'm in this amazing, amazing community that like is kind of just like popped up out of like a WhatsApp chat community of women in the music industry, women in the dance music space. Everyone is so supportive of each other. Like you have people who are like Grammy award winning artists in these groups to like, you know, some of the biggest talent managers in the world and like all the way to like, you know, somebody who's just starting out, who's like a local, like hustling DJ. And everybody is like super eager to help each other out, give advice, et cetera. So I would just say like, look for those kinds of communities. If anybody who is watching or listening to this is somebody facing this and wants to talk to me, like you absolutely can, my door is always open. and just like focus on being a really technically skilled DJ with great musical knowledge. All of the other stuff should also you know fit into the mix like content and social media and all that like but the craft is like the number one thing so like don't forget about that and keep that. up there and I think like you will just naturally gain a lot of respect, which you know hopefully instills some boundaries and like protects you from some of the gnarly stuff. But yeah, I think like thankfully the landscape has shifted a lot already and you know there's there are things to be obviously like hesitant about and like concerned with but there are definitely ways to avoid a lot of it. You know, obviously like in party environments, there's things that can go down, like it doesn't matter if you're a woman or a man or what have you, like we, you know, just deal with those things the best we can. That's why like having a team or something like that, someone to advocate for you is really important. There's actually a male musician that we work with who I had a conversation with in the past year because of some... you know, difficulties that he experienced during an event with clients that was like an invasion of space and like all kinds of things. So like it really like things can happen to anybody. That's why it's really important to have an advocate. Advocate for yourself, obviously, first and foremost, but like make sure you always have somebody like in your corner, whether they're there with you or know what's up that can help you out. You can't prevent every possible situation from happening, so just make sure you have resources around you. Love that. Incredible advice. I think the other thing too, women in the music industry are absolutely crushing right now. Taylor Swift, biggest artist in the game. In hip hop, the girls to me, and Gary and I have talked about this all day, I'd rather listen to the female rappers right now than any of the male rappers. Ha! Like that is also like, by the way, like that is like my like favorite like genre probably if I had to pick. But it's like, we're back in like the glory days of like women in hip hop. I'm like living for it. on like the Meg and Nikki beef right now or what? Yes, I've been in, well, I mean, for those of us who are Megan Thee Stallion fans, we're sort of like out of it, because it's just Nikki kind of spiraling on her own. I love, I love Nicki Minaj as like, I love her music, but it gets hard sometimes with these artists separating the artists from like, how they are acting in their regular life. But I've been a Megan Thee Stallion fan for- years. So I am thrilled about her success. Love her music. ha ha. Alright, so we're gonna get into some quick hitters here. Just like some, you can kinda just name off some stuff. So, we talked a lot first about the dance music industry. So who is your favorite artist in the dance music world? Oh my God, that is such a tough question. I think LPGOB is killing it and I love the way that she treats other people in the industry. So she definitely gets my vote in that regard. There's lots of, I mean, not just women DJs, obviously, but also it's been incredible to see Peggy Gou, the whole transformation blowing up in the past few years. I don't know, there's just so, there's so many. It's hard to pick. I saw LP GeoBeat at Breakaway Festival in Charlotte this summer. She was great. It was probably my favorite set I heard. I was only there for like three or four acts, but she played my favorite set for sure. As a deadhead, I'm all on board. Love her for it. She's been playing a lot of post-dead shows and she produced a Jerry album that was, it was okay, it wasn't bad, but it was good for the house music side of things. But yeah, I love her as well. I've been following her around a lot the last year and a half. In the hip hop world is Megan your pick? Is that your girl? Yeah, but like I have to confess, like one of my top artists listened to on Spotify, like don't clown on me for this. Last year was Sexy Red. Wow. Um, my, you know how they did that? Like, uh, did you guys see in Spotify rap this year? I love how they like, will come up with different ways to like pull the data together, but this year they did that whole like, what's your, I don't know if they called it like the sound city or like listening city or whatever. And I'm watching like every single other girl I know in my age group, they're posting like, I don't know, it was like some sort of like Midwestern town. It was like Taylor, cause they listened to a lot of Taylor Swift or something. And mine was Tallahassee, okay? Which I was like, oh my God, like how did I end up with, like, this says a lot. But yeah, I think Megan Thee Stallion is probably my number one in hip hop right now. Yeah, she's killing it. What was the last concert or concert ticket that you paid to go see? that I paid to see. Ha ha ha! Because I know we get to go to a lot of different things in our line of work. I guess like traditional concert or like festival was probably Lollapalooza last summer. I've been to like a million shows and stuff since then, but it's like the thing that's standing out in my mind because my bucket list, my like one of my few remaining like artists to see on my bucket list in my lifetime was Red Hot Chili Peppers. I had, I've wanted to see them for my entire existence, they were unbelievable. It was like better than I could have even imagined. So that was a highlight for sure. I've seen, I don't know, there's just been so many, I've appreciated like live music, like even more than ever before after the pandemic. I got to go to the first show back at Madison Square Garden when everything like unlocked, which was Foo Fighters. And that was like, also an unbelievable show that I'll remember forever. Yeah, I'd love to go see Food Fighters for sure. I think it's cool to go see artists outside of what we do on a daily basis kind of thing, you know? That's important. It's just, it's another perspective and it's kind of, you get some creative juices from that you don't necessarily get going to see an EDM or a hip hop artist, so I love that. and like you gotta remember, I mean I think it's really hard for DJs, like you're always kind of like, your mind is probably always thinking about music in a very specific way that the rest of us don't have that burden. But just to do things for fun, like for no other reason. Chachi and I were talking about this the other day, like I forget what we were talking about going to like some sort of festival or something or... something conference, something that was going on somewhere. And I was like, oh yeah, are we gonna do that? Like, cause strategically, like, shouldn't we go for like, what's the reason we're going? Like this, this and this. And he was like, to have fun. Like, can we, can we just do something once just to like have fun and enjoy the music? And I was like, you know what? We can. And I think that's super important. And we should all do more of that. Does he, yeah. sounds like me. There's no reason for this, we're just going to do it. Ha ha. go. There doesn't need to be a reason. More of that for all of us. That's like last piece of advice for all of us that I need to take. All right, so two more questions. One of them, we like to ask these questions. Might not be the easiest one, but what is your biggest challenge at the moment? My biggest challenge at the moment, and this is a recurring issue for years, is how to be in multiple places at once. There's just literally like, especially when you manage multiple artists, you want to be everywhere for everyone, and you want to be supporting them at a show, but you also know you need to like be maybe somewhere else for like a networking reason, or you know, there's just like a million... reasons. So I would say like that's the first thing that comes to my mind is like time management is always an evolving challenge and like finding a way to be effective and be everywhere all at once. I like that. We could use the same thing, Gar. Yeah, seriously. they get that cloning technology, I mean, I feel like we're right there, so. Ah. All right, and I guess the last one, and I know we've talked a lot about this, but we like to ask what's one piece of device or one thing that you can give an upcoming artist or DJ or one little tidbit that we haven't covered yet. Hmm, um, wear earplugs. That is the direction I'm taking it in because I now am seeing the impact of my beloved DJs that did not do so at critical window of their life, being around loudspeakers, et cetera. It is so, so important. Um, I was at Factory Town, uh, with Mia Moretti who had played a show there in December, um, and. standing in VIP, which is like basically all the artists and their teams and I was the only person wearing earplugs and the speakers are right there. I was just like, it was a nightmare kind of picturing what was in store for everyone. So that is number one of practical advice. And then otherwise, aside from that, I would just say, put the art first, have fun with it and like do no harm to other people in the process. I love it. That's a great way for us to wrap up here. I wanna shout out some of your team that we work with and shout to Marty Rock and obviously Chachi and Rick Wonder. We talk about Rick a lot on this podcast. He's been on the show before. And I would love to get some of those other guys on here at some point too. So I'm sure we can make that happen down the road. But Madison, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you. Thank you guys, it was so much fun and looking forward to doing some cool stuff together this year. for sure. All right, guys, thanks for listening to this episode. We'll catch you next week. Peace. Peace guys. Sweet. Perfect. Amazing. Thank you guys so much. It was so much fun. that was great. Great convo. We knew it was going to be good. So.